I'm well aware of the phrase. I've used it a few times myself. I didn't see his turn as mayor coming. I was ready to be able to go up against the Kingpin. I wasn't ready for Mayor Fisk.
I'm just making the point that someone who is actually at peace, who doesn't do the things I have to do might be a better role model.
Father Lantom. He helped take care of me after my father died. Not that I expect you to care or anything, but you have a particularly nasty habit of attacking all of the people I care about.
I think that would be a good idea. To stop doing what you're doing and actually consider how many people are going to be collateral damage when you do it. Maybe it doesn't come from the most righteous place, given that you're incapable of it, but if it stops you, that seems like it's good enough.
How many times have you tried using the legal system against him? None of them have ever stuck.
I don't need a saint to follow. I need someone flawed, a little messy, not afraid of me, and who doesn't hesitate to call me on my bullshit.
I think I understand now. Just a little bit what killing him meant for you emotionally.
[Whatever shred of empathy that resided in Dex had risen to the surface. Dr. Mercer dying had torn Dex up immensely as a teenager, given how she'd practically raised him by that point. He'd had so much anger being helpless to do anything while the cancer slowly ate away at her body. He could only imagine what he would have felt like if someone had killed her right in front of him.]
Having someone kill you is an easy way out. At least you're no longer in pain. When you kill someone ELSE a person cares about, you hurt them in such a way they're going to keep on being hurt forever.
It's difficult to function in a society with so many restrictions. But I'm trying to get back to a point where I can. Sometimes I think that I was just born too late. Anytime before things got really civilized in the 19th century, I would have been fine being the way I am.
I'm aware of that, Dex. I don't need the reminder that the system failed and I didn't stick the landing. I just have to operate on the faith that the next time it'll be different.
I suppose I can understand that.
Respectfully, Dex? No, you don't understand. There was a time when he was the only person I could talk to about anything and he was one of the few people who knew my secrets and kept them and some of our last words were said in anger. That's something I have to live with for the rest of my life because of what you did.
That is such bullshit. It's not an easy way out. It's the end of possibility for someone's life, to do what you do. You rob them of the chance to make someone's life better or to find peace or to do any of the things that matter when it comes to living.
"So many restrictions" as if there aren't just the standard guardrails that all society has been expected to function on. The only difference is that in the 19th century, I would've had to cross the plains to hunt you down. I still would've done it.
You know what they call doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results? Insanity.
[Given he'd tried to kill the Fisks twice now and failed, he didn't have much room to talk.]
You think I don't know what it's like to have someone I love who I could talk to about anything die in front of my eyes while I couldn't do anything to stop it? I do. More than you know. But I won't argue the point. I hurt you badly when I killed him and there's no changing that.
Even when you kill a bad person? That's how I kept myself in check for so long. I took evil out of the world instead of letting it continue on.
I'm sure you would have too. A blind sheriff sounds like a main character I'd see in a B-western. I would have made a fantastic gunslinger you must admit.
Different circumstances. Different charges. It's not the same thing every time, even if you profess to think that it is. The law can and does work and I have to believe that.
You did hurt me badly when you did that. You've got a habit of hurting me badly with the things that you do, in case you haven't noticed. We haven't even really broached the topic of the last thing you did.
You aren't the person who gets to judge if someone is bad or not, or if they are incapable of redemption or at least deserving of a different kind of punishment for what they did. You're not God.
Suppose you might've, but then the blind sheriff would've had to try to stop you. Seems like that's a theme.
Whatever my future plans are, killing him or them is not going to be part of that.
What's there to say about it, Dex? You took a job that you knew would involve killing an innocent and good person and you did it anyway with a fucking laugh. He was a better person than you'll ever be, better than I ever was and you just made that decision like it was nothing. I don't presume to think that you'll care when I tell you those things but what kind of monster murders someone who just spends his time helping people?
That removes all sense of agency from you. Last I checked, you were still a person capable of free will so don't try to sell me that one.
I'm not sure if I admire how unbreakable your morals are or want to throw something at your head for being so unbearably naïve.
[There it was again. That confirmation he was a monster, that small echo of the words that bounced around inside where he should have had a proper conscience; would have had it if he didn't possess the mental conditions he'd been struggling with for so long.]
That wasn't a good decision. Even if it seemed like the only one I had at the time. But even if I hadn't done, Vanessa would have found someone else to. She was never going to let him walk away alive.
I take responsibility for what I've done. No one has killed all those people but me. But as long as I had my job, at least I knew I was only killing people to deserved it, who were dangerous criminals or terrorists. Now, the only thing I've got is my own instincts and we both know how shot to shit those are.
You could try but you know I'd just end up catching it anyway so what's the point? I believe the things I believe and you're not going to be the thing that makes me question that again.
That's bullshit. You don't get to skirt blame just by saying someone else would have done it. If someone else took that job, I could've stopped it. That it was you, that it was your methods--that's what killed Foggy.
And what makes you think the police or the government ever know all of the answers or are always right? You can't just push off on the idea that they know everything and can give you perfectly clean orders either. At some point, you need to learn how to think about those things yourself and not just wait for the orders from on high.
Keep telling yourself that. That if it had been anyone else, your friend would still be alive. But when Vanessa Fisk wants someone dead, there's no stopping it.
I never hurt anyone who didn't deserve it while I still had a job to keep me in line and out of my own head. Do you know what it's like to live with the thoughts every day that tell you killing is the best and only solution for every problem? I had a life that kept me out of trouble until every last part of it was ruined.
Or you keep telling yourself that because it seems to absolve you of the responsibility of what you did if there was someone else waiting in the wings to do it for you.
Do you think I've never been tempted to kill someone? The only guardrails that will ever work are the ones you put around yourself because those are the only ones that can't be taken away by a job or circumstance. You also say 'ruined' like you didn't have a hand in your own destruction. You consistently use passive language in discussion of what you did or what happened and it's an attempt to deflect responsibility.
What do you want from me? An apology? I doubt I could give one that would satisfy you even if I was capable of giving one, which I'm not. True remorse isn't something I'm capable.
I know you have. Experienced that firsthand even. But you've got morals. The only thing that's ever kept me in line is rigid structures and someone to follow. I haven't had either of those in a long time now. I'm not sure I even know how to get it back.
I would fucking love an apology but I know I'm not going to get one. You'll have to answer for it someday, Dex, in this life or after.
I wasn't thinking clearly with you but there are plenty of times when I could have made other choices and not just with you. I have morals and I have a code. I don't really understand the ability to live without one, if I'm being honest.
If there is anything after this, I already know where I'm going. Which makes me hope there's nothing.
There's the reason neither of us are ever going to get anywhere with the other. Neither of us can really understand or figure out what's going on in the other person's head.
[Yes, they'd both been associated with Matt and that had led directly to their deaths, but Dex knows he also made his own decisions there. He could have walked away, could have stopped associating with either of the Fisks at either time, could have chosen a thousand other options other than the ones he did.]
You are annoyingly persistent in trying to find out the truth, you know that?
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I'm just making the point that someone who is actually at peace, who doesn't do the things I have to do might be a better role model.
Father Lantom. He helped take care of me after my father died. Not that I expect you to care or anything, but you have a particularly nasty habit of attacking all of the people I care about.
I think that would be a good idea. To stop doing what you're doing and actually consider how many people are going to be collateral damage when you do it. Maybe it doesn't come from the most righteous place, given that you're incapable of it, but if it stops you, that seems like it's good enough.
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I don't need a saint to follow. I need someone flawed, a little messy, not afraid of me, and who doesn't hesitate to call me on my bullshit.
I think I understand now. Just a little bit what killing him meant for you emotionally.
[Whatever shred of empathy that resided in Dex had risen to the surface. Dr. Mercer dying had torn Dex up immensely as a teenager, given how she'd practically raised him by that point. He'd had so much anger being helpless to do anything while the cancer slowly ate away at her body. He could only imagine what he would have felt like if someone had killed her right in front of him.]
Having someone kill you is an easy way out. At least you're no longer in pain. When you kill someone ELSE a person cares about, you hurt them in such a way they're going to keep on being hurt forever.
It's difficult to function in a society with so many restrictions. But I'm trying to get back to a point where I can. Sometimes I think that I was just born too late. Anytime before things got really civilized in the 19th century, I would have been fine being the way I am.
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I suppose I can understand that.
Respectfully, Dex? No, you don't understand. There was a time when he was the only person I could talk to about anything and he was one of the few people who knew my secrets and kept them and some of our last words were said in anger. That's something I have to live with for the rest of my life because of what you did.
That is such bullshit. It's not an easy way out. It's the end of possibility for someone's life, to do what you do. You rob them of the chance to make someone's life better or to find peace or to do any of the things that matter when it comes to living.
"So many restrictions" as if there aren't just the standard guardrails that all society has been expected to function on. The only difference is that in the 19th century, I would've had to cross the plains to hunt you down. I still would've done it.
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[Given he'd tried to kill the Fisks twice now and failed, he didn't have much room to talk.]
You think I don't know what it's like to have someone I love who I could talk to about anything die in front of my eyes while I couldn't do anything to stop it? I do. More than you know. But I won't argue the point. I hurt you badly when I killed him and there's no changing that.
Even when you kill a bad person? That's how I kept myself in check for so long. I took evil out of the world instead of letting it continue on.
I'm sure you would have too. A blind sheriff sounds like a main character I'd see in a B-western. I would have made a fantastic gunslinger you must admit.
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You did hurt me badly when you did that. You've got a habit of hurting me badly with the things that you do, in case you haven't noticed. We haven't even really broached the topic of the last thing you did.
You aren't the person who gets to judge if someone is bad or not, or if they are incapable of redemption or at least deserving of a different kind of punishment for what they did. You're not God.
Suppose you might've, but then the blind sheriff would've had to try to stop you. Seems like that's a theme.
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I was wondering when you'd get around wanting to talk about that. So let's get to it.
I didn't ever need to make those decisions before. I just did what I was told and hoped that was the right thing.
It does seem like you'd be involved with the law no matter when or where you are.
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What's there to say about it, Dex? You took a job that you knew would involve killing an innocent and good person and you did it anyway with a fucking laugh. He was a better person than you'll ever be, better than I ever was and you just made that decision like it was nothing. I don't presume to think that you'll care when I tell you those things but what kind of monster murders someone who just spends his time helping people?
That removes all sense of agency from you. Last I checked, you were still a person capable of free will so don't try to sell me that one.
Most likely. Law is what I'm good at.
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[There it was again. That confirmation he was a monster, that small echo of the words that bounced around inside where he should have had a proper conscience; would have had it if he didn't possess the mental conditions he'd been struggling with for so long.]
That wasn't a good decision. Even if it seemed like the only one I had at the time. But even if I hadn't done, Vanessa would have found someone else to. She was never going to let him walk away alive.
I take responsibility for what I've done. No one has killed all those people but me. But as long as I had my job, at least I knew I was only killing people to deserved it, who were dangerous criminals or terrorists. Now, the only thing I've got is my own instincts and we both know how shot to shit those are.
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That's bullshit. You don't get to skirt blame just by saying someone else would have done it. If someone else took that job, I could've stopped it. That it was you, that it was your methods--that's what killed Foggy.
And what makes you think the police or the government ever know all of the answers or are always right? You can't just push off on the idea that they know everything and can give you perfectly clean orders either. At some point, you need to learn how to think about those things yourself and not just wait for the orders from on high.
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I never hurt anyone who didn't deserve it while I still had a job to keep me in line and out of my own head. Do you know what it's like to live with the thoughts every day that tell you killing is the best and only solution for every problem? I had a life that kept me out of trouble until every last part of it was ruined.
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Do you think I've never been tempted to kill someone? The only guardrails that will ever work are the ones you put around yourself because those are the only ones that can't be taken away by a job or circumstance. You also say 'ruined' like you didn't have a hand in your own destruction. You consistently use passive language in discussion of what you did or what happened and it's an attempt to deflect responsibility.
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I know you have. Experienced that firsthand even. But you've got morals. The only thing that's ever kept me in line is rigid structures and someone to follow. I haven't had either of those in a long time now. I'm not sure I even know how to get it back.
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I wasn't thinking clearly with you but there are plenty of times when I could have made other choices and not just with you. I have morals and I have a code. I don't really understand the ability to live without one, if I'm being honest.
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There's the reason neither of us are ever going to get anywhere with the other. Neither of us can really understand or figure out what's going on in the other person's head.
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No, clearly not. I'm never going to understand.
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I find it interesting how you think though. From an objective point of view.
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I'm not sure you're capable of being objective when it comes to me.
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Why? You think my emotions keep getting in the way of things?
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You don't think they are?
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No. They're not.
[Lies.]
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Well, that's some bullshit and you know it.
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[Yes, they'd both been associated with Matt and that had led directly to their deaths, but Dex knows he also made his own decisions there. He could have walked away, could have stopped associating with either of the Fisks at either time, could have chosen a thousand other options other than the ones he did.]
You are annoyingly persistent in trying to find out the truth, you know that?
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The truth is important. It's the crux of law, even if you don't believe in it, so maybe that's my particular fascination.
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I was always more interested in the enforcement side of law and order. The truth has never interested me all that much.
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Of course you were. Nothing about that surprises me in the slightest, even if maybe you should've cared about it.
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